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Derium
Visitor
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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I think I am out for the night. Thank you all for listening, I'll check back tomorrow in this thread and see if I can't answer a bit more. I hope (even if you disagree) that you at least understand for the most part where this all came from, and our intentions. |
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Derium
Visitor
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Cal Hurst wrote: | | What I'm saying is scrap the new tower and do the old one up. And if the tower is to be "run" at all, it should either be run by a single player who has put a lot of work into the previous Mage Tower (or someone who has worked and paid to preserve the memorial tower placed in its presence), or Eris. Not a council. |
Fair enough, I didn't want to take what you meant incorrectly.
what if Pheonix and myself made a promise to help your shard get back the old Mage Tower (exactly what we've offered), and in the event there is a green light for the tower to be restored, we would hit the pause button on the Community Tower for a little while, so the Fel Mage Tower could be restored first?
Would that be an acceptable compromise? |
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Cal Hurst
Atlantic Legend
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 8025
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: |
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From my point of view you shouldn't be in the position to make such a compromise. So no. Sorry.
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Halister Marner
Site Programmer
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 2232
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Just for the record, I wouldn't take the tower since I don't believe any player should have a greater say in this project than another. That's not what a community is about. While it would be a more familiar face, it wouldn't be right or fair on any level.
I certainly do want the Felucca tower to be revived, but as much as I love AMT and Atlantic history, I also love the community, and the way this community center is happening isn't fair to everyone else. Had I wanted to support this and accept a council seat and hope for the Felucca tower to appear, I would have been doing it wrong, and I've passed up many interesting opportunities in my life to pursue what is right and fair for everyone.
If I have the choice of not getting the Felucca memorial and letting this project go on as proposed, I think all the old AMT'ers would agree with me that I'd rather not have either than have something that isn't right for our shard in trade for something that is.
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"There are those who dream to escape reality, and there are those who dream to change it." |
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Dryzzid
Honored Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 1260
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Forgive me for bypassing the discussion on who should be in charge of what, but if the project is to continue regardless to whether any constructive input has been said, I will at least be able to say I tried. I have a few ideas for a Community Center.
Derium, in a previous post you stated that the image that you and Phoenix have for this is a new "hot spot" that will pull people away from Luna. To do that, I think we must first look at what Luna provides that a Community Center can also provide. These are things that the "current" community center lacks. But then again, the Skara building wasn't created with the same purpose in mind.
So your community center is going to need the following at minimum to compete with Luna, and they are all going to have to be in a close proximity:
1. Bank
2. Stable
3. Moongate
4. NPC shops, tailors, provisioners, etc. A good idea would be to have a smith/tailor close together so people could use this as a convenient BOD gathering spot.
5. Ankh for tithing/resurrections
6. Innkeeper/way to quick-log
7. EM Town Crier (in Luna, I believe she is called "Atlanta the Event Announcer", or something similar)
8. Space to "bank sit"
9. Forges, anvils, etc. Stuff to cater to crafters.
The ultimate thing that this community center CANNOT provide that Luna obviously can:
1. Vendors. Even if the community center was able to allow the placement of player vendors, it could NEVER compete with Luna.
Also:
2. People are used to Luna. People know Luna. It would take some events and extreme promotion for people to switch their bank sitting spot.
NOW, with that being said. If you want this to be a COMMUNITY center, certain parts of it will have to cater to certain parts of the COMMUNITY.
Example: A "tavern" like area for role-players. A dueling pit for PvPers (even though it is Trammel rules, it would add to the aesthetic and at least allow guildmates to duel.) I realize that space is limited and whatnot.. but each aspect of the community (crafters, pvpers, RPers, PvMers, etc.)
Perhaps it could even be semi-combined with the EM Hall in Malas? Displaying some rare items or event items for those who like pixel eye candy?
Anyways.. just some top of the head thoughts. More to possibly come, barring intoxication.
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Derium
Visitor
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: |
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I don't want to turn this into an argument, but it seems from the last two posts that you guys would rather have nothing, than the LS chapter starting the ball for you. If that's the case I am sorry. And I will not pester you more. I'll still reply to some posts here for a little bit, just in the event other people have any questions.
So before too much planning is done, and if you will not come aboard, may I then ask you what you do not want us to do to the tower?
I'll check my PMs also now that I'm starting to get them here, And I will of course leave the door open for the future if you ever change your mind. Not only to Halister, but to everyone else. |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis wrote: |
Now, the next thing we're told is "oh, this isn't the mage tower, itsa community center [inspired by/based on] the mage tower." Is this just damage control? In any case, that makes it worse; now you are only vaguely paying homage to the original. If this had been a 'new community center themed around the old mage tower' from the get-go, OR a properly redone mage tower, it'd be fine, but you've picked some grey area in between. |
Yes, unfortunately this is a bit of a gey area, but primarily because we didn't want to offend anyone claiming to have brought back the Mage Tower, and because we really like the Mage Tower idea and wanted to spin off from it. So, I guess the greyness occurred naturally.
| Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis wrote: |
It also bothers me reading back through the posts and see how many references to 'hearing that Halister is upset' and 'we tried to contact him' and stuff. It looks like blame displacement to me, like you are eager to point fingers anywhere. Seems that the last person you should point your finger at is Hal, really. |
Not trying to put any blame on Halister. We are just trying to let everyone know what we have done to date. Several posts, and yours as well, indicate we have ignored this segment of the community, when, in fact, we have tired to reach out to community leaders.
| Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis wrote: |
There is an inconsistency that looks odd to me. One post says that the options were "I owned it, Phoenix owned it, or it didn't happen", but then Phoenix's post has no reference to this at all; it says that he told her "this isn't for us, this is for the people of Atlantic". Did she then demand that one of you two had to own it? |
As said in my post, perhaps Derium's first post was poorly worded, but our options were limited with the time frame we were given. No Mesanna did not make any such demands, that's too strong of a word, but I suppose it was the logical step given our work on the project and our contacting her about it.
| Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis wrote: | | Also, I don't like how the entire theme of that post is blaming Mesanna. You put the cart before the horse if you emailed her with no plan and said 'place this tower on Atlantic!', not her. You should have had your ducks in a row before you emailed her asking for it. |
Cart before the horse? Yeah, you're probably right on that one, but we would never blame Mesanna. We are grateful to her for working on this project. I believe you've misconstrued our presentation of the facts as shirking responsibility and placing blame, when in fact we both accept full responsibility and any blame should be directed at us. Although, we are both extremely excited and proud that this project is getting off the ground. Why not join us Lrod Kajabis in making this project the in UO?
Last edited by Phoenix/Jandruz on Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tyranthraxus wrote: | I have changed the title of this thread to reflect its (hopefully) new purpose: a cauldron of ideas from which will form the basis of a grand new addition to the shard. I say it in this way because as the posts before this clarify, this is not a new Atlantic Mage Tower, nor an attempt to replace the legacy that Tiffric, AMT, and many others established so long ago.
I do want to apologize for posting so quickly about finding the site of the new community center before I was aware of all the details of the situation. I was not attempting to create a stir about what is obviously a sensitive subject. I know personally that many people have tried countless times since the fall of the Atlantic Mage Tower to have it rebuilt. It is only natural that when a project interpreted to be a "replacement AMT" pops up, that there are going to be some sour reactions amidst the RP community members. However, I've read here that this "Community Center" is something of a hommage to the original, which I find suitable if it is done properly.
It is difficult in this case, at least in my opinion, to define properly. We have established that this project has started off poorly. Perhaps not poorly, but just in the spirit of poor communication. In no way am I dismissing the efforts put forth thus far by Derium, Phoenix, and Mesanna. I am hoping that with contributions here, private coorespondences between community leaders and the project workers, the ingame meeting on Friday, and a successfully formed council, that bitter feelings will subside and a grand new addition to our shard's history will be created. Nothing can ever replace the Atlantic Mage Tower or its influence on our shard. I do admire the intentions to create a new piece of history, though.
In addition to this, as the project itself is in the spirit of the Mage Tower, I sincerely hope that a proper memorial can and will be created for Tiffric and the AMT. I will not speak about any parties involved as I am not part of the process and as I understand, negotiations thus far have been unsuccessful. I only wish to voice my hope that those parties can come to an amicable agreement and that the "powers that be" are supportive in the matter so that all of Tiffric and AMT's contributions to the Atlantic Shard can be remembered and honored.
On a more personal note, I will say that I am happy that this project has come about. I am a UO player that tries to remain positive about the game, no matter what changes are thrown at me. I cannot say that I have agreed with every change, but at the same time I have played through them (when real life was willing to let me play  ). If it has come to pass that Derium and Phoenix have gotten the attention of Mesanna, and that this project has taken form in that manner, I am still all for it. I applaud you both, Derium and Phoenix, for coming here so swiftly after the issue was brought up and addressing it thoroughly. I truly believe that with a lot of communication and teamwork, and perhaps some "community", that both projects, The Atlantic Community Center AND a true AMT Memorial, will see the light of day. The rough start here does not have to set the tone for the project. After all, if people are negative throughout the whole process, the entire purpose of the project is nullified. In my opinion, it wouldn't serve well for the memories of Tiffric and the AMT if the project was bred through negativity.
With that all being said, I'd like to take a moment to offer any help that I am capable of providing to the project. I am certainly not a leader here within the ARPC, and I am not bidding to be on any council, but I am an active UO player, an avid role-player, a capable fiction writer, and an Atlantic and ARPC veteran. I would be more than glad to offer any assistance I can to help bring these dreams to reality. |
Outstanding! Thank you, Tyranthraxus. We would be thrilled to have your help and support! |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Cal Hurst wrote: | I don't mean to sound insulting again, but...
1. There were attempts by people here, on Atlantic, to put forth a restoration of the Mage Tower by people involved in the original Mage Tower. The fact that your efforts were focused on Lake Superior for years with no results, and then suddenly switch to Atlantic with results, is insulting to those who are here today.
2. The person who was pushing for this restoration is the person who currently holds the memorial.
Any, and I mean ANY person with a shred of wisdom would have had the right idea to contact the person holding the memorial with this idea, ESPECIALLY if this person had tried to contact them. I'm referring to Mesanna here. She chose very poorly. |
I do not want to be offensive or insulting in anyway, but it if I understand correctly, the Memorial owner has tried to contact devs in the past, including Mesanna, and with no luck. For some reason they were disinterested in that project, and for that I am sorry, because it is a worthy goal.
Also, Yes, Derium's efforts were focused on LS. ATL came into the picture because I play ATL and it's apparent failure to get off the ground on LS did not preclude an attempt on ATL. We thought it would be great for the shard, and we are hoping the idea spreads to other shards as well. |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Cal Hurst wrote: | | What I'm saying is scrap the new tower and do the old one up. And if the tower is to be "run" at all, it should either be run by a single player who has put a lot of work into the previous Mage Tower (or someone who has worked and paid to preserve the memorial tower placed in its presence), or Eris. Not a council. |
I would never pretend to speak for the devs, but I think we may be beyond the days when a single player owns these special types of structures. That's why the tower is dedicated to the players of ATL and owned by Mesanna. |
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Darrien Church
Honored Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Cal, Kuja and Halister have said all I would say and want to say currently, I'm just posting in support and agreement with their positions and statements.
In the end this showed a major disregard for the large community on Atlantic tied to the Mage Tower. |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Halister Marner wrote: | Just for the record, I wouldn't take the tower since I don't believe any player should have a greater say in this project than another. That's not what a community is about. While it would be a more familiar face, it wouldn't be right or fair on any level.
I certainly do want the Felucca tower to be revived, but as much as I love AMT and Atlantic history, I also love the community, and the way this community center is happening isn't fair to everyone else. Had I wanted to support this and accept a council seat and hope for the Felucca tower to appear, I would have been doing it wrong, and I've passed up many interesting opportunities in my life to pursue what is right and fair for everyone.
If I have the choice of not getting the Felucca memorial and letting this project go on as proposed, I think all the old AMT'ers would agree with me that I'd rather not have either than have something that isn't right for our shard in trade for something that is. |
Obviously, Halister, we are very disappointed that you will not be joining us in this endeavor, but I am even more discouraged that you believe that the way the community center is happening isn't fair. In every board and organization I've sat on in RL, and I've founded/sat on a couple, the organizers take the reigns to begin with. Once established, when there are openings, then you go to the application process, etc. That's how I would intend this council to be run. When one of the original organizers (whoever ends up on the council now) steps down we would ask for applications from those interested in serving.
And, please, Halister, reconsider you're position on this project. It's evident you care deeply for this shard. |
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Darrien Church
Honored Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Obviously, Halister, we are very disappointed that you will not be joining us in this endeavor, but I am even more discouraged that you believe that the way the community center is happening isn't fair. In every board and organization I've sat on in RL, and I've founded/sat on a couple, the organizers take the reigns to begin with. Once established, when there are openings, then you go to the application process, etc. That's how I would intend this council to be run. When one of the original organizers (whoever ends up on the council now) steps down we would ask for applications from those interested in serving. |
This is NOT a project or organization you founded or organized, if it was your intent to create a community centre you essentially usurped a project laboured on by several other personalities and communities on this shard in tandem, including the Atlantic Roleplay Community and the several historical preservation groups headed by personal friends to this community. Essentially, without sounding dramatic, I need to say this is a true slap in the face to this community and others (all people who had eagerly participated and provided input to the UO staff) and to the our cherished shard history.
I assure you the road to hell is paved with good intentions friend, in the end your lack of knowledge of our shard's history and the original AMT has done this shard and it's communities tied to the AMT a great disservice as well as greatly damaged the credibility of those members officially of the Ultima team involved. |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Tyranthraxus wrote: | Forgive me for bypassing the discussion on who should be in charge of what, but if the project is to continue regardless to whether any constructive input has been said, I will at least be able to say I tried. I have a few ideas for a Community Center.
Derium, in a previous post you stated that the image that you and Phoenix have for this is a new "hot spot" that will pull people away from Luna. To do that, I think we must first look at what Luna provides that a Community Center can also provide. These are things that the "current" community center lacks. But then again, the Skara building wasn't created with the same purpose in mind.
So your community center is going to need the following at minimum to compete with Luna, and they are all going to have to be in a close proximity:
1. Bank
2. Stable
3. Moongate
4. NPC shops, tailors, provisioners, etc. A good idea would be to have a smith/tailor close together so people could use this as a convenient BOD gathering spot.
5. Ankh for tithing/resurrections
6. Innkeeper/way to quick-log
7. EM Town Crier (in Luna, I believe she is called "Atlanta the Event Announcer", or something similar)
8. Space to "bank sit"
9. Forges, anvils, etc. Stuff to cater to crafters.
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Great, thank you. We are on the same page. We've asked Mesanna for much of this (we overlooked some very important ones that you mentioned here, however. So we will make sure to add those to our request!).
| Tyranthraxus wrote: |
The ultimate thing that this community center CANNOT provide that Luna obviously can:
1. Vendors. Even if the community center was able to allow the placement of player vendors, it could NEVER compete with Luna.
Also:
2. People are used to Luna. People know Luna. It would take some events and extreme promotion for people to switch their bank sitting spot.
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Correct on both counts. The vendor situation will be hard to overcome. Luna is so....easy, but hopefully we will succeed. And we intend to hold regular events to keep the tower fresh in peoples' minds, hopefully drawing them there rather than to luna. Also, can't get into the details atm because none of it has been agreed to but we have asked for some special features regarding crafting that might help draw people in. I have no idea if it will happen, but if it did, it would be really cool.
| Tyranthraxus wrote: |
Example: A "tavern" like area for role-players. A dueling pit for PvPers (even though it is Trammel rules, it would add to the aesthetic and at least allow guildmates to duel.) I realize that space is limited and whatnot.. but each aspect of the community (crafters, pvpers, RPers, PvMers, etc.)
Perhaps it could even be semi-combined with the EM Hall in Malas? Displaying some rare items or event items for those who like pixel eye candy?
Anyways.. just some top of the head thoughts. More to possibly come, barring intoxication. |
We will absolutely ask Mesanna for a tavern, that was on our list. A Dueling pit is a great idea - I think I read something on Stratics that someone found a cliloc file related to a dueling gump after the last patch? Did I dream that? And on the eye candy, we have asked her for that as well. Hopefully we can work with Mesanna and the EMs to support the events there, perhaps display awards from the tower events at the tower. Also, we want to link the tower to important sites around the shard, I think the EM hall would be one of those.
Thanks again Tyranthraxus. Please add me to icq (587108139) if you can. |
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Phoenix/Jandruz
Adventurer
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Darrien Church wrote: | | Quote: | | Obviously, Halister, we are very disappointed that you will not be joining us in this endeavor, but I am even more discouraged that you believe that the way the community center is happening isn't fair. In every board and organization I've sat on in RL, and I've founded/sat on a couple, the organizers take the reigns to begin with. Once established, when there are openings, then you go to the application process, etc. That's how I would intend this council to be run. When one of the original organizers (whoever ends up on the council now) steps down we would ask for applications from those interested in serving. |
This is NOT a project or organization you founded or organized, if it was your intent to create a community centre you essentially usurped a project laboured on by several other personalities and communities on this shard in tandem, including the Atlantic Roleplay Community and the several historical preservation groups headed by personal friends to this community. Essentially, without sounding dramatic, I need to say this is a true slap in the face to this community and others (all people who had eagerly participated and provided input to the UO staff) and to the our cherished shard history.
I assure you the road to hell is paved with good intentions friend, in the end your lack of knowledge of our shard's history and the original AMT has done this shard and it's communities tied to the AMT a great disservice as well as greatly damaged the credibility of those members officially of the Ultima team involved. |
I'm sorry you feel this way. And I know it looks as if we cut in line. But how many years have you been working to have the Mage Tower restored? Are all other projects on the shard supposed to wait on hold until the Mage Tower is restored? Rather than viewing this as a slap in the face and an affront to your project, why not join with us and make it our combined goal to get your project off the ground as well?
Derium and are both pledging in our posts to do what we can to help get the original site restored. While we are both unknown, we are somewhat capable as the placement of the community center indicates. We'd love to help. Isn't the shard capable of pursuing two projects? |
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