Atlantic Roleplay Community Boards

Halister Marner · **Site Programmer** Joined: 05 Oct 2006 Posts: 2232

The promise of the Fel tower being properly commemorated is certainly a good thing.

The current project in Trammel would be best served with Eris and/or Nestor heading the council and accepting applications for council members from Atlantic's wide variety of players. Working closely and involving players in the process while still maintaining a fair and just method of selection would help the entirely of Atlantic's community become fairly involved.

I'd certainly love to discuss the possibility of the Felucca tower returning and the current setup of the community project on Atlantic, however I would like to speak directly with Mesanna, since I would like to discuss and brainstorm several things with her to see what is possible and what best serves the community and its history.

If she could contact me to work out some ideas and listen to input it would be most appreciated.
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Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

Eris has said he is willing to help with the council, that's already in the works. I understand you wishing to speak with Mesanna alone about this. I would be honored if you were willing to join the council, and if you will not do that, at the VERY least talk with us and let me know what we can do to help you honor the Fel Memorial in a good way. I feel at the very least setting up something in the Community Center that has a teleporter (or as Eris said; "teleporters that correspond to the old mage tower including the same magic words used") would be great. But I leave all of those choices up to you, you did all the hard work, I feel those are your choices to make.

Phoenix/Jandruz · Adventurer Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 43

Hello everyone,

I am Phoenix. I go by Jandruz on Stratics. I want to introduce myself and give everyone a chance to get to know me.

First, Derium's post is factually correct, but may be poorly worded (Sorry, bud). Derium worked for years to have the LS Mage Tower restored, as he said. Over the last few months we've discussed that dream and his trouble in accomplishing it. At one point, as recently as a few weeks ago, he was about to admit defeat. I'm not going to get into what was going on with that project, but in our discussions we thought, “well it looks like we struck out on LS, let’s try Atlantic.” So, I sent Mesanna an email asking her to place a new tower on Atlantic. I received no response for days. I thought it was a bust. Then one day I had a PM in my Stratics box basically saying, “yeah, I'll do that.” I replied to her and, once again, didn't hear for days.

Now, many people on these boards have rightfully said why weren't we consulted? I know I'd feel the same way if our roles were reversed. The reason no one was consulted at that time is that we still weren't sure it would happen. I guess we lacked faith in our abilities to bring it about. I mean, if some guy from LS and some guy from ATL who you'd never heard of popped up on these boards saying they could bring about something like the placement of a new community center or the return of the Mage Tower (which this isn't...I'll get to that in just a moment), then red flags would have been popping up all over. Suspected Scam? Someone messing with us?

Anyway, we decided that we needed to get the tower placed, then bring people on board to run it. We made clear to Mesanna we did not want to own this tower. This is not supposed to be about us. This isn't my tower. This isn't Derium's tower. This is a tower for the people of ATL.

Mesanna got back to us after a few days with confirmation that this would definitely happen. She told us it had to be done by a certain date. It only gave us about 1 day to find a location and meet up with her. We had no time to develop a council.

So we chose the place we did, for the reasons Derium has discussed, and we set out to build our council. Now, Mesanna never order us to form a council. As Derium pointed out, we could have each chosen to run these towers individually as we saw fit. But, then they would have been about us, and we wouldn’t have been true to our word to Mesanna. We promised her we would work to develop community centers.

As soon as the towers were placed I set about inviting well known and respected players in the Atlantic community to the council. As an unknown, I know this tower will not work if I try to make it whatever I think it should be. It will only work with the direction of leaders who have a deep knowledge and understanding of our shard, and who have already worked to make ATL great.

I want the council to span the spectrum of player types. I definitely want the council to include role players. I'll admit, I have much to learn about the history of the shard, and it's key players, but I knew enough seek out the advice of a few people many know well. I received recommendations on reputable players who care about the community.

One such player recommended to me was Halister Marner. It was perfect. Derium and I wanted Halister on our council from the start. He has done such a fantastic job with the Mage Tower memorial we knew he would be an asset to the council. Plus we wanted to honor the Mage Tower site with a dev placed teleporter and by holding many Fel based events at that site.

So, I sent Halister a Stratics PM and heard nothing. Several of his acquaintances informed me he was upset with how things went down. I thought for a few days and sent him another stratics PM. The second PM apologized, which I will do here, for referring to the new tower as a Mage Tower, reiterated our invitation to sit on the council, and proposed an alliance whereby we would work together to make the original site such an integral part of the community center and its events that the devs could only find the next logical step to be the return of the Mage Tower. Still, no reply.

Halister, if you read this, I am once again extending the hand of friendship I spoke of in my PM. I am once again inviting you to sit on our council and help guide the direction of this community center and our shard.

Knowing role players are very important, I also invited Molly Khadel. I know she doesn't frequent Stratics that often, but that was the way I knew how to get a hold of her. I am holding two spots on the council open for them. Should they decline, other role players are welcome!

Now, to the name. The new tower has been referred to as a Mage Tower by me, Derium, and others in the planning stage and still today, but only for lack of a better term. Still, I humbly apologize to the role playing community for our lack of understanding in doing that. The new tower is not the Mage Tower. We do not want to disrespect Tiffric, his tower, or Halister's memorial. The new tower is a conceptual spin off the Mage Tower. The new tower is better described as a community center. We want it to become a shard hot spot. We want to pull people from Luna (I think we can all agree there was a better time when people hung out at WBB rather than Luna). Mesanna has agreed in principle to some cool features that might make that happen. In addition to that, we want to hold events at the tower on a regular basis, and our hope is to hold events at the Fel memorial site as well.

Okay, I've given you all a wall of text. I'll stop for now. I'll post on this thread regularly. I'm actually relieved that this thread has been started. Now, we can discuss this as a community. Also, if anyone wants to icq me to discuss further my number is 587108139. I look forward to continuing this conversation, and I also look forward to meeting as many of you as possible at the town hall (please double check the date, as I believe it will be bumped up to this Friday the 18th at 7:00 pm eastern).

Thanks! I know we can all work together to make our shard an even better place.

Dryzzid · Honored Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 1260

I have changed the title of this thread to reflect its (hopefully) new purpose: a cauldron of ideas from which will form the basis of a grand new addition to the shard. I say it in this way because as the posts before this clarify, this is not a new Atlantic Mage Tower, nor an attempt to replace the legacy that Tiffric, AMT, and many others established so long ago.

I do want to apologize for posting so quickly about finding the site of the new community center before I was aware of all the details of the situation. I was not attempting to create a stir about what is obviously a sensitive subject. I know personally that many people have tried countless times since the fall of the Atlantic Mage Tower to have it rebuilt. It is only natural that when a project interpreted to be a "replacement AMT" pops up, that there are going to be some sour reactions amidst the RP community members. However, I've read here that this "Community Center" is something of a hommage to the original, which I find suitable if it is done properly.

It is difficult in this case, at least in my opinion, to define properly. We have established that this project has started off poorly. Perhaps not poorly, but just in the spirit of poor communication. In no way am I dismissing the efforts put forth thus far by Derium, Phoenix, and Mesanna. I am hoping that with contributions here, private coorespondences between community leaders and the project workers, the ingame meeting on Friday, and a successfully formed council, that bitter feelings will subside and a grand new addition to our shard's history will be created. Nothing can ever replace the Atlantic Mage Tower or its influence on our shard. I do admire the intentions to create a new piece of history, though.

In addition to this, as the project itself is in the spirit of the Mage Tower, I sincerely hope that a proper memorial can and will be created for Tiffric and the AMT. I will not speak about any parties involved as I am not part of the process and as I understand, negotiations thus far have been unsuccessful. I only wish to voice my hope that those parties can come to an amicable agreement and that the "powers that be" are supportive in the matter so that all of Tiffric and AMT's contributions to the Atlantic Shard can be remembered and honored.

On a more personal note, I will say that I am happy that this project has come about. I am a UO player that tries to remain positive about the game, no matter what changes are thrown at me. I cannot say that I have agreed with every change, but at the same time I have played through them (when real life was willing to let me play Wink

). If it has come to pass that Derium and Phoenix have gotten the attention of Mesanna, and that this project has taken form in that manner, I am still all for it. I applaud you both, Derium and Phoenix, for coming here so swiftly after the issue was brought up and addressing it thoroughly. I truly believe that with a lot of communication and teamwork, and perhaps some "community", that both projects, The Atlantic Community Center AND a true AMT Memorial, will see the light of day. The rough start here does not have to set the tone for the project. After all, if people are negative throughout the whole process, the entire purpose of the project is nullified. In my opinion, it wouldn't serve well for the memories of Tiffric and the AMT if the project was bred through negativity.

With that all being said, I'd like to take a moment to offer any help that I am capable of providing to the project. I am certainly not a leader here within the ARPC, and I am not bidding to be on any council, but I am an active UO player, an avid role-player, a capable fiction writer, and an Atlantic and ARPC veteran. I would be more than glad to offer any assistance I can to help bring these dreams to reality.
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Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis · Transcendent Spammer Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 5740

Wow.

So, I'm going to start by echoing the sentiment in this thread: there is a major disconnect between your plans and the actual community and history that your plan is supposed to be about. It doesn't sit right with me at all.

Also, I don't like your recurring statements of "just hate me guys, it's cool". That is honestly a terrible way to handle this. Didn't it occur to you from the start that the community would react negatively to this? The factors mentioned in this thread - the fact that you and Phoenix are entirely unknown to the community here, the timing of contacting Halister after the ball was already rolling, replying to this thread this late, etc etc - did you really not consider this before? Did you think of doing a little digging and research before plowing on ahead? It seems like the procedure was diving in and assuming that whoever flips out the most cares the most and they'll come to you. Now you've got an angry mob at your front gate with pitchforks and torches for your Q&A. Grand.

Now, the next thing we're told is "oh, this isn't the mage tower, itsa community center [inspired by/based on] the mage tower." Is this just damage control? In any case, that makes it worse; now you are only vaguely paying homage to the original. If this had been a 'new community center themed around the old mage tower' from the get-go, OR a properly redone mage tower, it'd be fine, but you've picked some grey area in between.

It also bothers me reading back through the posts and see how many references to 'hearing that Halister is upset' and 'we tried to contact him' and stuff. It looks like blame displacement to me, like you are eager to point fingers anywhere. Seems that the last person you should point your finger at is Hal, really.

On the topic of it being a new 'community center', erm, we already have one in Skara Brae that the old EM team made for us. It got used for a little while, but as far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) it is fairly abandoned. It is a nice place, but we can make our own nice places. A community center that is so deeply mired in this mess doesn't seem like it is going to become a hot spot to me at all; if it really was planned to be a 'community center in the theme of the old mage tower', it should've been that from the start. This seems really poorly planned to me.

There is an inconsistency that looks odd to me. One post says that the options were "I owned it, Phoenix owned it, or it didn't happen", but then Phoenix's post has no reference to this at all; it says that he told her "this isn't for us, this is for the people of Atlantic". Did she then demand that one of you two had to own it?

Also, I don't like how the entire theme of that post is blaming Mesanna. You put the cart before the horse if you emailed her with no plan and said 'place this tower on Atlantic!', not her. You should have had your ducks in a row before you emailed her asking for it.

Anyway, here is hoping that you people in charge of this Not Actually The Mage Tower But Instead A Community Center Themed On The Mage Tower Alpha Turbo 3 Revenge: Director's Cut's Q&A goes into this with an open mind, considering that the sentiment is probably going to be 'stop, back up, lets do this right' or something similar. If the Q&A is just the same fluff that is in this thread with another healthy dose of "just hate me you guys, it's okay", then I can guarantee nobody is going to be happy about it.

Anyways, good luck getting the situation repaired and back on track. Back to lurking for me.

Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

just to reply to the last post really fast.

The first plans had nothing in it for Atlantic... Period.

when we thought the project was dead in the water, we all of a sudden had less than 48 hours to plan anything.

I said it was born from the idea of restoring the LS mage tower, then morphed into something different. Plans changed from what i was asking for 5 years ago, and they changed fast.

Mesanna did in fact tell us to 'own' it and get it going.

I never passed blame onto anyone, I was willing to take the blame myself, hence the it's fine to be mad at me.

Do you really want someone 'in charge' of something who is not willing to deal with upset people?

The entire Mage tower memorial thing was about respecting Halister and wanting to do what we could to help him, and not hurt him. We have all played the telephone game, last I 'knew' He was demolishing the Fel Memorial, and all of his other homes, and quitting the game because of the 'community Towers'. We knew better than to listen to anyone but the source, so we've waited.

and most important, I have to disagree that it would have been better to call it the Mage Tower. I feel me walking over to your shard and claiming I have the rights to take what was lost by a player passing away would have been nothing but terrible.

So to wrap it up, we had to plan a few things on the fly, the asking for one on ATL was pretty much a last minute thing and I'm not trying to argue with you here. Just trying to clarify a bit for you Very Happy

I do believe however statements like this; "the timing of contacting Halister after the ball was already rolling" Are impossible to answer. I can't assume you meant 5 years ago when this started.

we are just here to attempt to explain ourselves and asking if anyone is willing to help. If this community does not wish us to be here, then by all means we will leave.

Cal Hurst · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:34 am Post subject:

I don't mean to sound insulting again, but...

1. There were attempts by people here, on Atlantic, to put forth a restoration of the Mage Tower by people involved in the original Mage Tower. The fact that your efforts were focused on Lake Superior for years with no results, and then suddenly switch to Atlantic with results, is insulting to those who are here today.

2. The person who was pushing for this restoration is the person who currently holds the memorial.

Any, and I mean ANY person with a shred of wisdom would have had the right idea to contact the person holding the memorial with this idea, ESPECIALLY if this person had tried to contact them. I'm referring to Mesanna here. She chose very poorly.
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Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

Keep in mind that there is also a tram tower standing in the exact same spot on LS. It wasn't a switch to your shard, it was an addition onto it. Both towers were born within 30minutes of each other. so not only am I planning the LS Tower, but also trying to help the ATL. The ATL one worries me because on LS I have the 'name' and friends to make it go much more smooth. So yes, there is 'damage control' efforts. But it's nothing like us twisting the facts or anything like that.

As for Mesanna contacting him, I would have to think that if my efforts were finally heard, his must have a rather large chance to be heard. I also have no problems asking her myself about the Atlantic Mage Tower for him if he wishes me to.

and as I said, I do understand the insult you speak of. I'd feel weird if all of my attempts failed, but a Mage Tower brother from the Atlantic Chapter was the one that got the ball rolling for me on my Mage Tower. However, even though I do understand, I'm not 100% sure what to do as a 'peace offering' to this community.

Do you think it would serve Atlantic better if I myself just backed away completely from it now? Or since it's already rolling, wait until it a council is formed? looking for an honest opinion there.

Halister Marner · **Site Programmer** Joined: 05 Oct 2006 Posts: 2232

Teh Glouris Lrod Kujabis · Transcendent Spammer Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 5740

Cal Hurst · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:51 am Post subject:

Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

Don't have much time to reply at this moment. Did just want to say thank you, This is the only forum I know of where so many people are not seeing eye to eye on this issue, and yet this has not turned into a massive troll-fest.

I will reply to the other posts soon, but Halister I figured you were not going to demolish the Memorial. So don't think that's what we had in our heads Very Happy

Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

"Is Mesanna so unreasonable that she would have not worked with you had you said 'alright, lets slow down and research this and do this right?' "

That's a bit touchy and I can't give out too much on it. but I will assure you we had a very small window to work with.

"Then I have to question her judgment in this endeavor. As far as I know, Halister has pursued reviving the mage tower in some way shape or form previously, and she gives the project to someone who isn't local? I don't understand at all."

Keep in mind that in my mind this is NOT a Mage tower that we think of it being. My hopes as I said was to get this established, and then keep the momentum going to help Halister get what he wanted. We did not pick Halister because we felt obligated to let him in on this, we picked him because he's been fighting for a long time for what he wants, and as me being part of a Mage Tower for 12 years, yeah personally I feel bad for him. My fight paid off and I wanted to help the Atlantic Chapter out. And once the Atlantic Tower and Lake Superior Tower are up and running, I plan on trying to help out other shards get the same thing if possible.

"I'm sorry if I was misleading; I wasn't insinuating that you weren't willing to deal with upset people, I was questioning your methods. Your first move of telling people to hate you is certainly noble if it was intended to take the heat off of your friend, but that doesn't move towards resolving the situation at all, quite the opposite."

Aye, I do agree, and yes I worry A LOT about Pheonix taking too much heat. That guy has a great heart. and yes I do feel a great level of responsibility because it was my actions that started this entire thing. I think anyone would want to be the 'bullet shield' for their friend in this situation. At the same time if people are mad at me, I want them to yell at me if they so decide to. I'd rather have honest feelings than a false persona.

"If you really respected him, you would've contacted him first, IMHO. You seemed to listen to everyone but the source fairly often, given what you said in your posts about 'people said he was mad' and whatnot."

I didn't want to give him false hopes. We have been planning this for months, and it failed... or so I thought. I can not tell you how close we were to failing on this, there was more than a few times the entire project was in danger. I wanted to know beyond a shadow of a doubt it was going to happen before I told him it was a sure thing.

"To play devil's advocate, maybe his love and dedication was such that he would have loved nothing more than for someone who was as dedicated as him to the history of the server to have carried it on. Your feelings are just as much speculation as mine, so what gives you the right to make that call?"

I was kinda given the right to name it, Mesanna asked me what it was going to be called. I told her not the Mage Tower. So she put the placement holder name onto it. I had to put myself into Halisters shoes to the best of my ability (given the limited info I had), and I decided if someone came over to my shard and replaced the Mage Tower while I was trying to do the same thing... My head would have exploded. Not only that, but I decided it would be disrespectful to all of the Mage Towers (standing or not) to steal the spotlight from them... Like Baja did.

"If you really respected him, you would've contacted him first, IMHO. You seemed to listen to everyone but the source fairly often, given what you said in your posts about 'people said he was mad' and whatnot."

Even the telephone game is correct to a degree. I knew he was upset, just not sure how upset. So I backed off.

"From what I've heard, Halister was contacted well after this whole thing started. I was registering my opinion that all of your statements about him being the 'first person to talk to' and whatnot sound like a load of bologna to me."

All I can say is his name was the first we said to each other, we visited the Mage Tower Memorial and spoke about it. I guess why would I lie about it? This new tower really has nothing at all to do with Halister, or the Atlantic Mage Tower. We just wanted to make him part of this because we want to see his dream come true. (the restoration project I'm speaking of).

"Just to clarify, my statements do not at all echo the sentiments of "the community". If they want you to leave, they can say so. I'm just sharing my own personal observations."

And I hope people tell me to stay, or to go away. I need to do my best to understand how people feel about this. And I am very happy you're sharing your observations with me, I hope out of all of this we can make this run much more smoothly. I honestly thought that once Halister got word of the Tram Tower, he would get excited because it means his dream is 100% possible now. And that with us wanting to join him in the fight, it might come sooner. I pray to God that everyone here who says Halister deserves what he wants, that you have been calling EA, writing letters and sending emails with him as well. Because if you haven't lifted a finger to help him, yet claim he deserves to have it... that wouldn't make any sense. The more people banding together, the higher the odds. and that was the battle I was hoping to join all of you in (the ones pestering EA).

If he ever wishes to have the LS Chapter come to his aid and fight with him, we will be here for him. Period.

Derium · Visitor Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 18

Cal Hurst · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:05 am Post subject:

What I'm saying is scrap the new tower and do the old one up. And if the tower is to be "run" at all, it should either be run by a single player who has put a lot of work into the previous Mage Tower (or someone who has worked and paid to preserve the memorial tower placed in its presence), or Eris. Not a council.
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