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Alaundril Do'Rhett
Seasoned Veteran
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 330
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 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I've had a few cases where people had spotted me somewhere where I shouldn't have been. I run my ass off and dive behind a building. Alot of times, you dont have time to type out an emote. And everyone can plainly see what you are doing.
I totally agree with Cal on this one...if you want to really dig into it Cal, a stealther spends at LEAST 100 points. Thats just for hiding. near 200 for me because of stealth. Thats alot of skills, like a third of a template. So hell yes people can do what they want. I think this is covered pretty well in some APRC rule post somewhere or another. I agree on the idea that yeah, 100 points in hiding dictates that you are really good at hiding. So there should be very little that could keep you from disappearing on someone.
Right in plain sight though? Meh, I try not to do that in my RP. Hell, Alaundril is an old drow assassin and probably couldnt pull that off.
People that do this need to be taught. Its crap RP to do it that way. And I suppose a bit of flair to it would be better. Hell I've been caught red handed before. And if you hadnt been spotted or arent wanted by the people in question then my flair is to play it off with a really big lie and cover story.
Either that or just kill them.
Cause
We're
Drow |
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Cal Hurst
Atlantic Legend
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 8025
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | People that do this need to be taught. Its crap RP to do it that way. |
Why is it crap? To disagree with it but respect it is one thing, but to outright declare it crap is another. I hope you don't resurrect people with bandages, or use magery. In fact, resurrecting in itself is crap. When your character dies, is it permanent?
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Vian Skyfire
Adventurer
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Remove the name "hiding" from the ability. Instead think of it as a mystic ninja or shadow walker ability. Or consider them a Mage that has spent all their learning mastering a single spell, invisibility. It's a fantasy world, be creative. |
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Rags
Journeyman
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Vian Skyfire wrote: | | Remove the name "hiding" from the ability. Instead think of it as a mystic ninja or shadow walker ability. Or consider them a Mage that has spent all their learning mastering a single spell, invisibility. It's a fantasy world, be creative. |
How dare you sir, how dare you... !!! |
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Davaran Skyfire
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 679
Location: Sanctus, The Kingdom Of
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sanctan Ranger Mage in Action.
Hiding, jump behind a chair.
Stealthing is the real issues, moving whilst concealed. |
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Mairsil
Lore Master
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1241
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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As strong as the argument remains, its sosaria and it is magic and hiding in plain sight is an ordinary part of this world, I still find flaw in the argument.
To quote Vaen:
| Quote: | | No, of course you would never say "I have 100 skill points of hiding," but you can absolutely say that you have done extensive training to learn to blend into the unseen. |
Here's my problem. Right there, you role played. Excellent. So why does it have to stop there?
I don't understand why anyone would go through the effort to find the coolest possible way to say they had the hiding skill in character, and yet still just uses it to vanish, on top of a horse, in the middle of the street.
By not just saying 'I have a hundred skill points in hiding' you are choosing to roleplay instead of just acknowledging the mechanics as part of the world. I assume you do this because it is better roleplay to do so. So why not keep the roleplay going and assume that you'd probably be much better at hiding with a smoke bomb or a bush - instead of just using the skill as disappearing?
I know that sooner or later the 'It's my thirteen dollars a month' will come up so I will say I am not here to tell anyone how they should do their roleplay. I am just suggesting that it seems that as a role playing you enjoy spending your time filling a roll in a specific way, and that anything else just detracts from your own immersion.
It is the same reason most of us don't recall in the middle of houses or taverns. We could yeah, it is certainly part of the world to recall. But Rp'ly..just sort of feels rude and annoying..so we walk outside first.
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"You see I can not be forsaken, because I'm not the only one. We walk amongst you, beating, r#ping, must we hide from everyone?" - Jon Davis |
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Mairsil
Lore Master
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1241
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Edda wrote: | Okay I'll be serious for a minute.. But only one.
I love your arguments for this topic a lot , Cal. You're my new hero.
You cannot join BL without having ninjitsu hiding and stealth. Clearly it would be really strict in our guild lore or whatever to train your buns off in those areas.
Ninjas are generally sneaky, stealthy, and its okay that you're intimidated. I would be too..
Cause
We
Are
Ninjas |
Wanted to respond to this separately..
I will happily acknowledge that yes you are ninjas...yes you probably spend a good deal of time training yourselves to move silently, hug walls, be quick on your feet, incorporate flexibility into your movements..etc etc etc..
You are ninjas you earn that.
You also likely use smoke bombs, your ninjas, ninjas like smoke bombs. That makes perfect sense and I have zero qualms with smoke bombs. You used a smoke bomb, you have a perfect reason to disappear, my eyes aren't smoke proof.
However, for all the credit I initially give you for being ninjas, it is my trust in BL that would lead me to hope that you'd still find creative ways to role play all of those things I'd give you credit for learning without just resorting to hitting the hiding button.
Just being a ninja isn't really a 'get out of rp free card'.
But again, Just my opinion. I wont think less of you if you choose not to roleplay, it just seems like to not do so is cheating yourself.
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"You see I can not be forsaken, because I'm not the only one. We walk amongst you, beating, r#ping, must we hide from everyone?" - Jon Davis |
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Cal Hurst
Atlantic Legend
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 8025
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still waiting for a response about the other issues and not just hiding. If we're going to put hiding under a microscope, then we might as well go balls to the wall. It is unfair to just look at hiding and wave a finger at it.
Bandaging ghosts for resurrection
Making fullplate in less than a minute
Anything magery does, ever
If I'm standing in the middle of an open flatland on my stealth character and feel the need to hide, I'll do so. The character has invested countless hours training to do just that.
| Mairsil wrote: | | It is the same reason most of us don't recall in the middle of houses or taverns. We could yeah, it is certainly part of the world to recall. But Rp'ly..just sort of feels rude and annoying..so we walk outside first. |
That's quite a bit different. It is an in-character courtesy not to just recall out in taverns. It has nothing to do with the explanation of a skill whatsoever.
| Quote: | Just being a ninja isn't really a 'get out of rp free card'.
But again, Just my opinion. I wont think less of you if you choose not to roleplay, it just seems like to not do so is cheating yourself. |
I skimmed the posts, but I was unable to find where any of the BLers, or anyone for that matter, stated that being a ninja was a "get out of RP free" card. Nor did I find a spot where they were "choosing not to roleplay." Please point me in that direction.
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Last edited by Cal Hurst on Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Edda
Certifiable
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1586
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I can accept most of that.. I've been lazy about rping hiding.. I can waste a couple smoke bombs if it makes me acceptable in the rp community. I want to keep my empty quiver though *huggles her empty quiver* |
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Kinn
Journeyman
Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I've personally always thought that Hiding+Stealth+Ninjitsu equaled so much more than just the ability to move around without being seen. Think about it, the Ninjitsu spellbook is a mix of melee and magic (which is what Ninjitsu is in most RP games anyway). Ninja stealth is "magical". I've always looked at the Ninja's ability to hide/stealth as less "taking to the shadows"--and more "becoming one with the shadows". I've also looked at Drow ability to Hide/Stealth as being such a heightened form of "taking to the shadows" that it borders on "becoming one with the shadows" (due to the racial lore of the Drow).
To me, when a ninja moves in stealth, it's very similar to walking on a different plane (to use DnD terms). I can see the physical world I'm walking in..but they can't see me. It's like a fog in which I exist and the shadows litterally cling to me and I meld with them. That's how I rationalize the ninjitsu shadow jump move as well. I mean, I can be on one side of the street with you in the middle and I can JUMP right over you---fully hidden--thanks to that skill. Did I just jump in such a way as you didn't see me above your head--or was I literally part of the shadows that are all around you and merely moved from one side of the shadow to the other?
There are so many ways to RP this, that's just the angle I take (being both Drow and Ninja with 300+ points tied into those three skills).
And yes, these abilities are such a huge part of my overall template that I'm not going to NOT use them to the fullest. As someone who is an advocate of conflict-centric RP, I'm seriously gimping myself to spend 200-300 points (depending on how useful you see ninjitsu in a PVP setting vs other options) in my template for what are, in my case anyway, strictly RP reasons. Since stealth is such a HUGE part of my RP, you bet I'm going to use it to the fullest that the game mechanics allow.
When I walk--in stealth--right down the middle of the Umbra streets I am merely part of the ever present shadows that exist on those streets. I'm in THAT realm, not fully in the earthly realm--which is why you can't see me. If you RP Detect Hidden then your detect hidden better be good enough to actually reveal me (Elf+115 stealth+Ninja). If you cast a Reveal spell-even if it doesn't reveal me--if I know your magery is fairly high I'll often pop out of stealth anyway--just to let you have the success since magic is such a powerful force in Sosaria. Now, if I see you fizzling on Flamestrike or something and you cast a reveal---I'm not giving you that if the reveal doesn' t actually work.  |
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Sindreline
Journeyman
Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Wherever the Evil is strongest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Edda wrote: | | I can accept most of that.. I've been lazy about rping hiding.. I can waste a couple smoke bombs if it makes me acceptable in the rp community. I want to keep my empty quiver though *huggles her empty quiver* |
You keep your smoke bombs in the Quiver |
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Cal Hurst
Atlantic Legend
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 8025
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Sindreline wrote: | | Edda wrote: | | I can accept most of that.. I've been lazy about rping hiding.. I can waste a couple smoke bombs if it makes me acceptable in the rp community. I want to keep my empty quiver though *huggles her empty quiver* |
You keep your smoke bombs in the Quiver |
Let's not bring that topic up again, oi. haha
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Bishimi
Journeyman
Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 276
Location: the shadows
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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ive ran it "batman style" now and then. throw a stone or something to catch attention and hide. but again, do we drop our points and rp hiding and stealth? |
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Mairsil
Lore Master
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 1241
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Okay....
| Quote: | Bandaging ghosts for resurrection
Making fullplate in less than a minute
Anything magery does, ever |
1) Bandaging: If I were going to rez someone via bandages, I would use the mechanic to support the roleplay and resurrect them, yes. But it would SUPPORT the roleplay.
A) You assume that I'm actually roleplaying placing my bandages on the ghost and not the body right next to the ghost.
b) You assume that the person is being counted as dead. A lot of the time people treat death in a duel or whatever as being knocked out or brought near death, but not killed. Thus, you could possibly help them with band aids and potions because you are mending wounds, not bringing them back to life.
2)Full plate in less than a minute: Again, a mechanic the -supports- the roleplay. Not the role play itself. Show me one role player that actually RPs that they make full plate mail in 15 seconds. Most black smiths I've ever met rply would explain to me in character that they had been a blacksmith all their life. Secondly, I know I've read countless posts and stories in which blacksmith's work on weapons or armor hours into the night.
Maybe you've seen someone who roleplays creating armor that fast. I have not.
3) Anything magery does, ever? What does that even mean? You treat my argument as if I'm saying hiding in plain sight is bs because you can't do it in real life. That isn't my argument at all. My argument is making role play more realistic.
You want to talk about how it is part of the world? That's magic. Magic is a part of sosaria..it is in the lore, it has ever existed, it is a common thing as it is in 99 percent of role play settings. Hiding/stealth is also something that happens in 99 percent of the role play settings out there, but there is always a reason for it. You find me one instance in ultima lore in which hiding was used because Dupre 'had the skill points'. You won't find one.
Put on a ring, cast a spell, throw a smoke bomb, whatever. There is a MAJOR difference between getting onto rp for not being as real as real life, and getting onto rp because it could be done more realistically than it is. You are dissolving a barrier for the sake of combating an argument.
| Quote: | | If I'm standing in the middle of an open flatland on my stealth character and feel the need to hide, I'll do so. The character has invested countless hours training to do just that. |
You could do that. Or you could role play doing any of the things I've mentioned a hundred times now so that it actually made sense. If you want to stick to the 'I have 100 skill points' argument you do that. Yet again - you won't acknowledge the mechanics in spoken word in character, but you'll acknowledge them in character when it comes to action. This seems contradictory.
I'm not saying your character didn't invest countless hours. I'm saying that your role play would be a lot more believable and much more interesting if you had a method to vanishing other than the magic of skill points. Use the mechanic as support, it isn't wrong to use it, but it shouldn't be an end all solution that you use so that you don't have to roleplay.
| Quote: | Mairsil wrote:
It is the same reason most of us don't recall in the middle of houses or taverns. We could yeah, it is certainly part of the world to recall. But Rp'ly..just sort of feels rude and annoying..so we walk outside first.
That's quite a bit different. It is an in-character courtesy not to just recall out in taverns. It has nothing to do with the explanation of a skill whatsoever. |
I disagree. The only reason it is an in-character courtesy in the first place is because as role players with common sense, we tell ourselves that: 'Hey, i think that his character would think mine rude if i recalled in his house instead of walking out side.' Which is exactly the same as a role player with common sense saying 'Hey, I think it'd be much more believable that my character vanished in front of his eyes if i put on a magic ring, or at least much more so than if i just blinked out of existence' . Yeah it doesn't include the justification, but the point was on reasoning.
| Quote: |
I skimmed the posts, but I was unable to find where any of the BLers, or anyone for that matter, stated that being a ninja was a "get out of RP free" card. Nor did I find a spot where they were "choosing not to roleplay." Please point me in that direction. |
That was a direct reference to Edda saying:
Cause we are Ninjas
Which followed her statement in which ninjas do hard core training on learning to hide/stealth so they should be able to hide.
It was not at all a burn, it was just a point that 'yes, you absolutely do hard core training, but why not use the tools available to you to make the role play that much more b@d@ss, instead of just clicking a button. If you are choosing to click 'hide' instead of using one of the tools of the game along with a good emote, you are choosing to do what is faster and easier as oppose making use of an opportunity to roleplay.
No one roleplays that at ninja school they got taught to click the hide button. So rock my world by saying that they went to ninja school and learned how to be cat woman, then do some sexy emotes and click the button for a smoke bomb, or hell, walk to the nearest shadow then click the hide button.
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"You see I can not be forsaken, because I'm not the only one. We walk amongst you, beating, r#ping, must we hide from everyone?" - Jon Davis |
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Cal Hurst
Atlantic Legend
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 8025
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Mairsil wrote: | Okay....
| Quote: | Bandaging ghosts for resurrection
Making fullplate in less than a minute
Anything magery does, ever |
1) Bandaging: If I were going to rez someone via bandages, I would use the mechanic to support the roleplay and resurrect them, yes. But it would SUPPORT the roleplay.
A) You assume that I'm actually roleplaying placing my bandages on the ghost and not the body right next to the ghost.
b) You assume that the person is being counted as dead. A lot of the time people treat death in a duel or whatever as being knocked out or brought near death, but not killed. Thus, you could possibly help them with band aids and potions because you are mending wounds, not bringing them back to life. |
Both possible, but what about the times when you are resurrecting someone that is no where near their body? Happens more often than not, especially in times of battle when ghosts run to someone who is resurrecting.
| Quote: | 2)Full plate in less than a minute: Again, a mechanic the -supports- the roleplay. Not the role play itself. Show me one role player that actually RPs that they make full plate mail in 15 seconds. Most black smiths I've ever met rply would explain to me in character that they had been a blacksmith all their life. Secondly, I know I've read countless posts and stories in which blacksmith's work on weapons or armor hours into the night.
Maybe you've seen someone who roleplays creating armor that fast. I have not. |
Oh I've seen a lot of people do it. I've also seen people repair weapons and armor in 15 seconds or so.
| Quote: | | 3) Anything magery does, ever? What does that even mean? You treat my argument as if I'm saying hiding in plain sight is bs because you can't do it in real life. That isn't my argument at all. My argument is making role play more realistic. |
We as a community need to be very careful how much "realism" from our world we incorporate into the fantasy setting. Very careful. Too much realism is bad, and too little realism is bad. It sounded as if you were leaning far too close to the realm of "Sosaria = Earth," which unfortunately some people do.
| Quote: | | You want to talk about how it is part of the world? That's magic. Magic is a part of sosaria..it is in the lore, it has ever existed, it is a common thing as it is in 99 percent of role play settings. Hiding/stealth is also something that happens in 99 percent of the role play settings out there, but there is always a reason for it. You find me one instance in ultima lore in which hiding was used because Dupre 'had the skill points'. You won't find one. |
Well of course not, Dupre was a warrior, I don't believe he would have had training in hiding. However, there are some books in the world of Ultima that deal with this sort of thing. One mentioned people disappearing and reappearing in thin air. And I think the Ricardo story arc also had something to do with this as well, as it was commented that perhaps he could do this as well.
| Quote: | | Put on a ring, cast a spell, throw a smoke bomb, whatever. There is a MAJOR difference between getting onto rp for not being as real as real life, and getting onto rp because it could be done more realistically than it is. You are dissolving a barrier for the sake of combating an argument. |
I'm all for adding fluff. Fluff makes games. My initial argument with this situation was that people were -telling- others that they should duck behind a desk or a chair. That was my problem with it.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | If I'm standing in the middle of an open flatland on my stealth character and feel the need to hide, I'll do so. The character has invested countless hours training to do just that. |
You could do that. Or you could role play doing any of the things I've mentioned a hundred times now so that it actually made sense. If you want to stick to the 'I have 100 skill points' argument you do that. Yet again - you won't acknowledge the mechanics in spoken word in character, but you'll acknowledge them in character when it comes to action. This seems contradictory. |
"Making sense" is something that is very hard to do in a Fantasy setting. Very hard. We can allow it to "make sense" to us here. As roleplayers, we're wrapped our heads around the idea that "magic" can do things, hence you suggest a ring. But what if a character just has the ability to slip through the shadows into another plane, as Kinn mentioned? I suppose an attached emote to the hide button wouldn't be too hard to fasten.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying your character didn't invest countless hours. I'm saying that your role play would be a lot more believable and much more interesting if you had a method to vanishing other than the magic of skill points. Use the mechanic as support, it isn't wrong to use it, but it shouldn't be an end all solution that you use so that you don't have to roleplay. |
Believable for who, though? I guess my problem with UO's mechanics is that they aren't explained like the other mediums I'm used to RPing in. UO's website says that you can "disappear into the shadows." I'm not advocating there being no reason for someone just disappearing into thin air. I'm saying that it is possible for someone to do that without the help of a ring or a smoke bomb. The mechanics support that.
| Quote: | | I disagree. The only reason it is an in-character courtesy in the first place is because as role players with common sense, we tell ourselves that: 'Hey, i think that his character would think mine rude if i recalled in his house instead of walking out side.' Which is exactly the same as a role player with common sense saying 'Hey, I think it'd be much more believable that my character vanished in front of his eyes if i put on a magic ring, or at least much more so than if i just blinked out of existence' . Yeah it doesn't include the justification, but the point was on reasoning. |
That's not nearly the same thing at all. One is a polite gesture IC by one's character not being rude to the other patrons. It has nothing to do with OOC whatsoever, atleast for me. If my character would recall or gate out of a tavern, then he'd do it. If he wouldn't, then he'd walk outside. Has nothing to do with an OOC explanation at all.
Blinking out of existence really isn't that far fetched compared to a LOT of the other things that go on in Sosaria. Not by a long shot.
Personally, the reason I dislike putting limitations on game mechanics so quickly is that if we continue to advise people to forget game mechanics, then why are we even playing UO? Another game should be found if the mechanics of the game are far too hard for people to realize that in the lore of the game, it is possible, and it is doable. It's the game we play. It's the setting we use. It's the mechanics we are railed in to. It is far more difficult and time consuming to alert everyone that we are "going against this game mechanic" and to "do it this way instead," than it is to accept the possibility that in another realm, something is possible.
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